Stan Schmidt - Interview with a Master

by Tom Mursalo

 

This interview was conducted in January 2003 with Sensei Stan Schmidt, one of the world's most famous and internationally recognised Karate Masters. Sensei Stan is a founding fellow of the International Karate Society (IKS) and the founder of the College of the Open Hand.

Schmidt Sensei was born in Kokstad, Transkei on October 6, 1936. He was educated at King Edward VII High School and obtained a Master's Degree in Communications at the University of South Africa.

He first visited Japan in 1963 and since then has trained in Japan with the top Japanese Karate Masters on numerous occasions.

In april of this year, he was invited to instruct at the spring training for black belts (1st Dan to 7th Dan), which took place at the magnificent new JKA headquarters in Tokyo.

He is recognized by the Japan Karate Association as an international instructor of senior status and is the only non-Japanese of the Shihankai and sits on the Inter-Continental panel of four as Chief Instructore of the South African JKA.

KGK: Let me start by thanking you on behalf of the Keith Geyer Karate website for agreeing to this meeting.

STS : Oss! - Happy to be here.

KGK: Most Shotokan karate-ka know a fair amount about your history and life in Karate.

STS : I hope not all of it?

Sensei Schmidt & Sensei Enoeda - 1965

KGK: Well, the bits that are in your books anyway, but for those people reading this interview, perhaps you could give us a brief recap - Why Karate?

STS: Insecurity! I'd been doing some body building between the ages of 15 and 17 at home in a gym I'd put together at my mothers house and thought I was pretty tough.

On a road trip with a couple of friends, we were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got ourselves into a huge fight with 5 guys. To cut a long story short, I got pretty badly beaten up and that got me thinking about how to avoid situations like that.

During that period I was playing trumpet in a band with a guy called Manny Lubowitz (who later went on to form Manfred Mann's Earth Band), and a band member who did a bit of wrestling suggested I try Judo. So I took up Judo, got my black belt and then broke my ankle. When something bad happens, often something good comes out of it and in this case it was while I was recovering that my Judo Instructor gave me some Karate books by Mas Oyama (Kyokushin) and Nishiyama (Shotokan). I was immediately hooked and started teaching myself karate from the books. Then a friend of mine suggested that I should visit Japan to further study the art and in 1963 I decided to take his advice and set off for Japan.

KGK:You just got on a plane and turned up at Tokyo Airport?

Stan Schmidt and Nakayama Sensei outside the Hoitsukan Dojo in 1963

STS: Not exactly. I'd just got married and the bank I was working for had already given me some long leave, so I wrote letter to the JKA asking if I could come and train. The reply was positive, so my wife Judy and I decided to spend our honeymoon in Japan, where we eventually spent 3 months.

KGK: And you trained every day while you were there?

STS: Every day at the Dojo and back at the Hotel in the evenings. Judy had been watching the instructor classes while I trained and she became almost like a coach, relaying back what she'd seen during the day.

KGK: She never had the desire to take up Karate too?

STS: She did for a short time, but then realised that one fanatic in the family was enough, so she got interested in dancing instead.

Judy Schmidt assisting Sensei Stan during first trip to Japan

KGK: If you hadn't broken your ankle and started Karate, what other sport would you have taken up?

STS: I did all the ball sports at school, but was never really that good at any of them. It was more things like boxing (which I did at home in my Gym), body building and mock fighting that I was interested in.

It's quite ironic, but before I had even heard of Karate, a group of us used to go down to Zoo Lake (a lake in Johannesburg) and practice imaginary fighting........ oh, and music.... I played in a quite a few bands.

KGK: And do you still play?

 

STS: I do, but just for myself at home. I find that it's (the trumpet) good for my breathing. I'm studying different types of breathing which if I'd known then, would have made me a better trumpetter. I've learned some breathing techniques from an Australian - James Morrison that have helped me adopt a softer approach to my training.

KGK: Do you believe this has benefitted your Karate?

STS: 100%!! - Especially as I've got older. Young people want to train hard - they want to feel their muscles working. As you get older, it's the opposite. If you don't take a softer approach, you are going to hurt yourself. You don't want to put unecessary pressure on your joints - you need to keep things smooth. It's like a perfect drive in golf - the action is smooth, not harsh - that's my philosophy now.

Sensei's Schmidt and Enoeda square off

KGK: Do you think the risk of injury whilst training outweighs the benefits?

STS: If I speak personally and for people I know who have trained with me over the years, there is not one who'd swop and go back and be a couch potato - regardless of injuries they may have suffered.

Besides, as you get older and more senior, the risk of injury decreases as the Kumite becomes more restrained and controlled.I'd rather fight a 5th, 6th or 7th Dan anyday than a wild yellow belt who hasn't yet learned control.

At the end of the day, if you have a good Sensei, you are unlikely to get seriously injured.

KGK: Should you be approaching your trainnig differently as you get into your 40's and 50's?

STS: Definitely.

KGK: Are there things you shouldn't do?

Sensei Stan teaching in Germany in 1997

SS: Karate's a form of body building. For a younger person, the idea is to progressively overload the muscles to build the required strength.

Doing heavy, repetitive Kihon for example, will break down muscle tissue which then heals and makes you stronger - It's the principle of body building.

When you get past a certain age though, the healing process takes much longer, so it's important to rest properly inbetween training sessions.

Instead of doing 1000 kicks every day, try alternating with a day of stretching or Kata. Heavy, repetitive kicking and punching are fine - but not every day. I now prefer to do a lot of Kata and smooth, fast reflex work against knives and sticks.

KGK: Do you think that modern Karate-ka have it easy compared to the "tough old days"?

STS: That's a hard question to answer. I think technique has improved and this possibly has the effect of making training seem easier. What's the better technique - picking up a heavy stone with your bare hands, or using a lever to move it? Most karate techniques use a form of leverage, so it's important to make sure you do the technique as efficiently as possible.

Yes, we trained hard, but we trained hard in a stupid way! Today there are a lot of extremely sharp people on the dojo floors who've learned from the injuries their Sensei's have suffered and who train smarter as a result. I think Karate-ka are technically better today than when I started. As for Spirit - that's hard to judge. It depends very much on the club you train at.

KGK: I notice, looking at your hands, that your knuckles have been damaged at some time - obviously as a result of years of Makiwara work. Is there anything you would do differently if you were starting Karate today?

Sensei Stan - Makiwara training

STS: Yes, definitely. I would still do a lot of Makiwara work, but perhaps not every day. My first Makiwara was a rope wound around a tree.

I was told to hit it until my fists bled, then put salt on the wounds and keep going till the fists bled again.

So that's what I did, until I had a big hole in my fist which became infected, caused a lot of damage and prevented me from training. It was incredibly stupid, but in those early day's we didn't know any better.

Today I'd adopt a more sensible approach.

You still have to hit the Makiwara hard, but it makes much more sense to hit something that is correctly padded and has enough spring. I'd hit hard maybe twice a week for power and conditioning and then fast and light two or three times a week for accuracy.

It's also important to use other techniques on the Makiwara, like Shuto, Haito, etc..

KGK: Does weight training bring any benefit to Karate? One school of thought is that suppleness suffers when you develop a big upper body mass.

STS: That depends on how you weight train. Take Terry O'Neil for example (3 times KUGB Grand Champion), he's got excellent upper body development but can still do the splits - he just incorporated stretching into his weight-lifting routine. If you only do static exercises, then of course your suppleness will suffer.

KGK: So a combination of stretching and weights is important for all-round Karate development?

STS: It's strength, speed and mass that give you power at the end of the day, so if you build up your muscle mass, whilst maintaining speed and suppleness, then you'll be at the top of your game. Weight training is imperitive when you get into your 20's. Before that, youger people should concentrate on general body conditioning like press-ups, chinning and side-to-side squats.

KGK: Do you feel that Karate in Japan has changed over the years, or is it still very traditional?

Sensei's Schmidt & Tanaka - 1979 Demo in Japan

STS: The Karate that I know has remained totally traditional. The JKA has changed dojo's over the years, but the procedure remains the same. You start with a warm-up, then Basics, then Kata. The only thing I have noticed is that they used to do more Kata in the past at the Honbu Dojo - in my opinion the men's Kata team was much better 10 years ago than they are now.

KGK: Do you think that sticking doggedly to tradition is detrimental to the development of Karate? - Is that why in Australia, styles like Kyokushin and Taekwando are more popular than Shotokan?

STS: Are they? I wouldn't know. I see organisations splitting into independent factions on a world-wide scale. Kyokushin has the same issue with splinter groups forming after Mas Oyama died.

It's the fractionalisation of Shotokan that gives it the impression that it's not that popular.

You shouldn't tell people that they can't be independent - there should be no problem with forming your own organisation, as long as the different groups get together at times to share ideas and improve the general standard - isolating these independents from the mainstream doesn't help Karate as a whole. People should be willing to learn from each other, irrespective of whether their faction, art of discipline has a different approach - that's the idea behind the "College of the Openhand".

There is one area that I believe that the JKA could extend themselves further. In Japan they will not invite external Shotokan exponents to train at the Honbu Dojo. I feel the exact opposite - I'd like the styles and factions to integrate more. In South Africa, if you want to enter one of my tournaments, you are welcome - regardless of your affilliation.

KGK: So, your concept of "the College of the Openhand" is to promote a free exchange of ideas?

STS: Yes, hopefully by attending one of our future seminars you will go back to your own dojo and integrate some of the things you have learned - maybe some Grappling techniques, or stick work - it's all about putting something back into the art. It's important to learn from other styles so that we can learn to apply our own techniques in new and innovative ways. It's been my fortune to train with many Japanese and Western innovators around the world and this continues to improve my Karate.

KGK: Politics is pretty rife in the Karate world. What advice would you give to a senior student who's being affected by internal politics in an organisation?

STS: "Train Man Train - don't strain your brain!" Ha Ha. Okay, what exactly do you mean?

KGK: Pressure not to train outside Ones association, or being forbidden to compete in external tournaments, etc.

STS: You know I think it was George Washington who used to take a walk every morning and politely greet his political opponent who took his daily walks at the same time. The other person would always ignore the greetings and pass some snide comment. On one occasion, Washington's walking partner asked him why he would always greet the man politely, given the kind of response he kept getting. Washington said - "I have certain principles that I believe in and I don't change them for anyone. My principle is to have good manners and it doesn't matter what he does or doesn't say to me - I won't change that principle. One day he may come round to my way of thinking."

I believe the same thing. You've got to have your own set of values in life and if a Sensei or Association is behaving in a way that violates those values, then you are selling yourself short by remaining under the control of those people.

An harmonious environment is very important for Ones karate development. You shouldn't train with someone you resent. Rather seek out a Sensei of good character who can help you achieve your long-term goals whatever they may be.

KGK: That's very difficult to do if you've trained with someone for a long time - There's almost a sense of misplaced loyalty at work.

STS: Yes, some people are quick to impose a sense of guilt upon you if you allow them to - for example they may say - "Look how much I've done for you, and you go off and ..... so on......".

My whole approach to this issue changed totally years ago. I now actively encourage my students who've reached a certain level to train with other Sensei's. I'll explain that Sensei X is a better side kicker than me, so go and learn how to do a better side kick and come back when you've mastered it. That way the student improves and he or she brings back something of value into my dojo.

After my hip operations, I starting focusing less on tournament Karate, so I'd send students to Sensei Derrick Geyer in Germiston, or allow them to attend classes with Sensei Norman Robinson of a different organisation, to get the knowledge they needed. They invariably returned to my dojo.

KGK: That attitude seems to tie in neatly with your concept of The College? (College of the Openhand)

STS: Yes - I think it was Walt Disney who said that when you free people, they'll always come back. I still get calls and e-mails from students of 40 years ago and now I am teaching some of their children and even grandchildren.

KGK: So you've never regretted making Karate your career?

STS: No, it is my destiny.

KGK: Do you think it's harder for younger people to follow a career in Karate now than it was when you started out 40 years ago?

STS: Definitely - there are so many Dojo's now and so much competition. When I started out in South Africa there was nothing. I read all the books available and chose the JKA Shotokan style - and I'd do the same again. I really admire other styles such as Goju Ryu - their bunkai is excellent, but what I like about Shotokan is how it relates to most other sports. You take golf for example. The way we rotate our hips is very similar to a golf swing or a baseball swing.

KGK: Would you recommend taking up golf to improve karate?

STS: I would, if you're that way inclined. It helped me approach my karate with a more relaxed body and mind. I was lucky though, as I got coached by the very best in the business - Sadly, I've never achieved lower than an eighteen handicap.

KGK: Was it Gary Player who taught you?

STS: No, I had Wayne Westner and Bobby Verwey who taught me the basics. I went to school with Gary. In fact I learned a tremendous amount from him in other ways. He had the best spirit I had ever seen in a sports person. He used to box with people twice his size at school and beat them.

I remember him signing our school math books and telling us to keep his signature because he was going to be the number one golfer in the world. We all laughed at him, but he achieved what he said he would do.

KGK: But you also got to the top - how?

STS: With passion - I suppose. I wasn't as talented as some of my peers - I had stiff ankles and couldn't do a full splits - but I had reasonably good reflexes and the desire to be the best I possibly could be. It was all really down to insecurity. I lost my Dad when I was 9, so I was always trying to find out what being a man was all about - you know, the macho thing.

KGK: Have you ever had to use Karate in a real situation?

STS: I have, but that's not to say I've ever had to hit anybody - only once or twice. I've always found that the calmer I'm able to make myself, the better I'm able to handle a particular situation and in most cases this can stop a fight before it even starts. It's something that comes from all the years of training - It's like having a presence . Most Martial Artists have that presence and that makes people think twice about starting trouble.

KGK: Have you ever experienced 'the Gunslinger syndrome' where someone will want to try and pick a fight just to say he beat Stan Schmidt?

STS: Yes, a couple of times. One one occasion I was in a pub once with some of my students - and we were well known in that area for coming in for a drink after training. On one occasion, some guy in a group starting mouthing off - "oh, here comes Stan Schmidt, the big wheel", or big deal or something like that.

He was a pretty tough looking guy, you know - bulging muscles, tattoos everywhere - so I thought I'd better do something to defuse the situation. I walked straight up to him and said "Excuse me - I teach karate and I've noticed the way you sit and hold your body - you'd make a fantastic karate man." He started smiling and shaking my hand - and telling me how he'd always wanted to take up karate - he did a compete about face. It's better to overcome an aggressor with your attitude than your fists. Keith Geyer has got that. A calm strength.

KGK: But not when he was younger apparently?

STS: Keith's always been calm. He's not one to ever start a fight. But man if he got angry about some injustice, that's when you wouldn't want to be around. It's like his spirit swells - his eyes grow narrow and you just know - Beware!

Anybody who feels they're in the right when fighting will win. You can face a thousand men when you're right, but if you're in the wrong, don't even face one - rather apologise.

 

KGK: The South African JKA has an incredible number of members - about 9000 I hear"?

STS: The official number is about 7,000, but unofficially its somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000. Many of the dojo's have members that haven't registered with the association, plus we have underprivileged dojo's that increase the numbers - 7's the official number.

KGK: Would you say that it's the biggest JKA body outside Japan?

STS: No - Japan say that we're one of the biggest, because we affiliate the most Black Belts and our tournaments are large (over 3000 entries in 2002), but I know that Germany is actually bigger.

KGK: Germany? I would have thought the States?

STS: Okazaki Sensei's ISKF (International Shotokan Karate Federation) is big there too.

KGK: Australia has less than 800 members in the JKA - to what would you attribute the success of JKA in South Africa compared to somewhere like Australia?

STS: I'm not in a position to speak about JKA Australia.

KGK: Well then tell us how to build a successful organisation like the South African JKA?

STS: There are 3 things that I believe are important to the success of any organisation. Number one is Trust . It starts with the leaders of the organisation - they need to have self trust and be trustworthy.

The second is Empowerment - without empowering your instructors, you can't grow. But you've got to trust yourself first, then you've got to trust the people within the organisation so that you can pass on power as well as responsibility - the two go hand-in-hand.

Finally there's Alignment . Take two guys in a rowboat for example - if one's rowing towards a light on the shore and the other is rowing out to sea, they never get anywhere - there's no Alignment. It's the same in any organisation - If your rules are clear and you empower your committed leaders, then there's alignment and the organisation will move forward and flourish.

Association leaders who don't allow their senior instructors to grade their own students in the kyu ranks, are showing no trust in their senior officials. Why have senior grades at all?

KGK: Surely there are rules in the JKA that say a registered 4th, 5th or 6th dan can grade somebody up to a certain level? What happens in South Africa?

STS: Our dojo heads, who must be 3rd Dan or above and hold an instructors licence, may grade their own students up to brown belt. We then we have two national black belt gradings every year. Our high level Senseis can grade students 35 years and older up to nidan. Japan has accepted this system.

KGK: Moving away from Karate politics, a few people in the club have put forward a number of questions for you. The first one is - Are you going to write another book?

STS: At the moment I've been busy, with the help of a lot of people, re-writing the SA JKA constitution. That was harder than writing a book - but it had to be done and it took me a year and a half.

KGK: What was the biggest change from the previous constitution?

STS: That if I as Chief Instructor misbehaved, I could be removed by a majority vote of the SAJKA technical board (5th Dan and above). So if I am not up to scratch for the job, a better leader must be elected.

But getting back to your original question, besides working on the constitution, I've been doing research on how juniors should be taught from the age of 5.

I've also been looking at training for older Karate-ka 35 years and above and disabled Karate-ka.

I leave all the tournament matters to Sensei Derrick Geyer (7th Dan & the brother of Sensei Keith Geyer) - he's the expert and has a far greater level of understanding of the subject than I do.

I've also got this ongoing thing of producing a magazine for SA JKA which comes out quarterly and I'm continuing my research into knife, stick and nunchaka work and trying to integrate it back into our karate training. For example, there are some well tested methods for dealing with knife attacks such as Professor Sotis' AMOK methods and Vladimir Vasiliev's ways of taking a knife off an assailant.

KGK: Apart from your own training, who else do you currently train with?

STS: My son-in-law Mark Hildyard, a strength and conditoning expert, constantly advises me in this field. Sensei Eddie Dorey teaches me a lot of knife work and Sensei Mark Robinson gives me guidance on JuJitsu and Grappling. I've also been studying aspects of Goju-ryu with Sensei Arnold De Beer.

On the karate side, the people I regularly train with are the Senseis in the "Early birds" class in Johannesburg. I also enjoy training with and learning from Senseis Ueki, Tanaka, Osaka and Keith Geyer. And finally, I also train alone 3 times a week on all the drills that are necessary for my personal development and progress.

KGK: Are you going to publish the research you've been doing in some sort of written format?

STS: I'm a bit too busy researching, studying and training at all these wonderful systems to think about publishing. If I do get the time, I'll probably look at producing either a book or a video tape. I think that a video may be more instructive, with maybe an associated booklet.

KGK: I heard that you're writing a fiction story as well?

STS: Where did you hear that? Yes - It's called 'Myo' - do you want to read it?

KGK: Oh, its already published?

STS: I originally wrote a short story called 'The legend of Freddie the Flying Karate Frog'.

It takes place in the Kruger National Park and is about a frog and a snake - the snake being the Sensei.

It's a fictitious story that enabled me to deal with concepts like honour, love,faith and forgiveness, which I believe are some of the underlying secrets of karate - (or what I thought they should be).

The book did the rounds at one of our big children's Gasshukus and one of the Kids took it home to his mother who happened to be one of the English Teachers in our region and she gave me a call and asked if she could read a chapter to her class.

I then got a call a week later and she said that she'd given the class a choice between a Roald Dahl book, some other author and Freddie the Flying Karate Frog for their first term prescribe and that the majority had voted for Freddie the Frog. So I then supplied the school with about 50 copies and that's as far it went.

I thought it was too short for a book, so I didn't market it. I then did a second part - 'The Myth of Tanaka' which kind of complements 'Freddie' as Sensei Tanaka comes up quite a bit in the story. It's based on a real incident which Tanaka Sensei experienced and has many aspects of his character interwoven in the story.

I've printed a few copies for myself , but haven't published it because I am not satisfied with it yet.

KGK: Here's another question from the club - Growing up with 4 daughters – obviously your students were going to ask them out – how did you handle it?

STS: (laughs) - I really treated my eldest daughter Caryn's first boyfriend in an ‘stand-offish' way.

KGK: You mean like any father with teenage daughters?

STS: Maybe. But he was alright, just a young guy trying to be nice and I regret being rude to him. After that I decided I'd just be friendly, welcome them nicely and so on.

As a result I've never had any problems. Keith Geyer (now married to Sensei Stan's daughter Debbie) was too big and powerful to argue with anyway - (laughs).

Dolph Lundgren, the actor, took one of my daughters out about 10 years ago. He was making a film in Namibia (Red Scorpion) and came and trained with us at our 6am Early Birds Class.

KGK: Is he a Shotokan man?

STS: No, he was from the Kyokushinkai style, but had actually been doing a lot of kickboxing as well. While he was with us he trained 3 times a day - Karate in the morning, weights in the afternoon and aerobic exercise like running, later on in the day. He had one of the most perfect physiques I've ever seen – big shoulders – 6 pack – unreal! His back kick was unbelievable.

KGK: A good guy?

STS: A friendly gentleman.

KGK: Any other famous would-be suitors?

STS: The other guy that I liked very much was Chuck Norris, but he didn't ask any of my daughters out. He was a very nice man. He came out to South Africa to publicise the film McQuade and I was asked to make contact and introduce him to some karate people. He wouldn't come and spar with us, but he was very up front about it. He told me he was an actor now and although he did his own private karate training and conditioning exercises, he wasn't interested in getting involved in kumite sessions and getting accidentally injured as this wouldn't help to further his career. We appreciated his honesty.

KGK: He strikes me as a strong man?

STS: Yes, but a different, contained strength compared to Dolph Lundgren who manifested outward power.

KGK: My last question today Sensei is – where to now? Are you planning on coming to Australia on a more permanent basis?

STS: That's the one they ask me most. The other is – "what Dan are you?" To which I normally answer “no-dan” – I prefer to be seen as a martial arts instructor and student and my major aim in life is to instruct, to learn and to help people to train, create, grow and find their own destinies.

I will be in Australia together with my wife at times, but at this stage my main commitment is to the members and instructors of the SA JKA Karate Association in South Africa.

I don't want to break my links with either country. I spend time in both places due to family commitments. The rest of the time I like to spend in other parts of the world taking part in seminars, teaching and learning from other enthusiastic martial arts practitioners.

KGK: Well – on that note – Thank you very much for your time Sensei Stan – we look forward to your next visit down-under.

STS: Oss – and may God bless you all at the Keith Geyer School of Karate!

 

Interview by Tom Mursalo - January 2003. Keith Geyer School of Karate would like to thank those who contributed questions to the interview including Chris Downing, Luke Byrne and Michelle Goodwin. Thanks also to the SAJKA website for some of the photos used in this article.